[llevene00]

Hello! I’ve spent weeks and weeks searching for an answer to no avail so I figured I would post here as well.

I’m looking for a place where I can buy something like the 4t65e conversion kit sold on zzperformance (Gear Ratio Conversion Kit). Trying to get a 3.69 ratio for better low speed acceleration. Their one has been out of stock forever and I can’t find anyone else selling something similar and in stock aside from MMS who sells one for $2000.
Ideas? Car is a modded 2004 LeSabre with the following:

105lb valve springs
Steel Valve Spring Retainers
Custom pushrods
GT1 Camshafts
H-Body Downpipe w/ MagnaFlow Turbo XL muffler
Rollermaster Double Chain Timing Set
LS7 Hydraulic Roller Lifters
Extra thick front cover gasket
Machined oil pump cover
K&N drop in air filter
High flow fuel filter
Custom tuned PCM
180 degree thermostat

Right now 0-55ish is all 1st gear and then when it shifts to 2nd I’m getting a huge rpm/torque drop because all the gears are so long.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[dezldave961]

(Edit: my apologies... just got out of a rough training course, don't take the salty replies personally)

It's an OEM part from the older 4T60/60e transmissions from the early 90's. You can either hunt down a fresh set of sprockets/chain from a parts supplier (or local trans specialist shop), or find the right vehicle/trans code to get from a junkyard. Both of those have more than surface-level details involved to fully accomplish, but it's honestly up to you on how much you really want to go into it for a minor tweak that gets you from beating Civics from a stoplight to beating V6 Accords from a roll (i.e. performance isn't going to blow your mind N/A, and 3.69's are wasted on boosted cars... had 2 friends with it).

After finding the OEM sprockets/chain, the sprockets need machining to mate to our 65 system (details on that are somewhere, or a skilled person will recognize what's needed & be equipped to do it).

Sidenote: What's with all the recent LeSabre owners recently? Must be a bunch of original owner grandpa/ma's passed on after buying them 15-20 yrs ago.

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

local up here has a twincharged 03/04 lesaber

the 4t80e was available with a 3.71 FDR on olds aurora special packages, i have that 3.71 diff and a 3.11 on the shelf for the 442, both 80e's are currently 3.48

the *)e all reduction is at the diff planets so FDR changes are easy. the planet setction bolts to the diff....so even a heavy spring easy to overhaul posi is doable

the 65e requires both a chainset and a diff with the integral planets for the range of FDR available

 

[devonth]

in 1994 GM changed their 7/8 wide chain and sprockets in the 4t60e

so you want the 1994 or newer ones and the correct chain for it also

Borg Warner HV058

the 1994 and newer chain is a rocker pin style chain the older one is a round pin style chain.

the older round style pin chain is much weaker and less efficient.

the older round style pin chain is sometimes sold as 15/16th wide chain.

the sprockets for each chain type are also not interchangeable!

and both sprockets will need some simple machining

the driven sprocket needs a cone shape counter bore 0.282” deep from the top face of the sprocket to clear the 4t65e 4th clutch hub.

(you can verify the measurement by comparing the the OE sprocket counter bore against the clutch drum shaft that slides inside of the sprocket splines, with depth calipers, the difference may look like it is only .240" but that is because there is a step down in the face of the 4t60e sprocket so take that into account. the step down will be removed by the cone angle side wall of the counter bore for clearance. and it will be more obvious that the depth is actually .282")

both sprockets will need drilled for the four hole and 2x three hole pattern to fit the 4t65e reluctor wheel, and the two plastic thrust bushings that have molded round pegs to hold them in place.

a milling machine can do all of this, just make carful measurements to lay out the hole location

In the end you may not want to do the 4t60e sprocket and 7/8 wide chain swap

Dave Norris at triple edge performance told me that he thinks the chains are not made as strong as they once where. he said after a couple of LS4 cars broke 7/8 chains in less than 5000 miles under normal driving conditions he stopped selling them.

I have two theories, why. after the LS4 powered cars came out all 4t65e transmissions where equipped with the same stronger chains that the LS4 cars got. each leaf link is 0.030" taller than the 4t60e links and they are the same width, so there is more cross sectional area to withstand the tension load. (assuming the same Alloy steel and treatment the 4t65e chains should be stronger.)

the other factor is the 4T60e Chain is very tight between links compared to 4t65e chain links. and the teeth on the sprockets for the 4t60e are slightly bigger on one side than the other. about 0.0075" total. this can cause all of the load to be on the out side links first. and if they break it is a domino effect.

Dave Noris said he built a special transmission to test the case deflection under load and he says that the case flexes enough under high load of high HP cars that the guide links get Jammed into the teeth of the sprockets and this breaks them.

I have not seen his test rig so I don't know how he was measuring but under load I can imagine the chain on a sprocket that is larger on ones side than the other would guide the chain at an angle, instead of straight to the next sprocket.

left drive sprocket is post 1994 , right driven sprocket is pre 1994

^^Borg Warner HV058 (rocker pin chain match left sprocket)^^
note the gap around the miss matched sprocket/chain

^^round pin style chain is the older weaker style 15/16 chain^^
note the gap around the miss matched sprocket/chain


The older sprocket on top has the same number of teeth (35) but is about 1/16" larger in diameter!

 

[John L]

Hello! I’ve spent weeks and weeks searching for an answer to no avail so I figured I would post here as well. I’m looking for a place where I can buy something like the 4t65e conversion kit sold on zzperformance (Gear Ratio Conversion Kit). Trying to get a 3.69 ratio for better low speed acceleration. Their one has been out of stock forever and I can’t find anyone else selling something similar and in stock aside from MMS who sells one for $2000. Ideas? Car is a modded 2004 LeSabre with the following: 105lb valve springs Steel Valve Spring Retainers Custom pushrods GT1 Camshafts H-Body Downpipe w/ MagnaFlow Turbo XL muffler Rollermaster Double Chain Timing Set LS7 Hydraulic Roller Lifters Extra thick front cover gasket Machined oil pump cover K&N drop in air filter High flow fuel filter Custom tuned PCM 180 degree thermostat Right now 0-55ish is all 1st gear and then when it shifts to 2nd I’m getting a huge rpm/torque drop because all the gears are so long. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!

I have one but it is maybe spoken for,contact me and we can talk 3.69 gear conversion

 

[John L]

Hello! I’ve spent weeks and weeks searching for an answer to no avail so I figured I would post here as well.

I’m looking for a place where I can buy something like the 4t65e conversion kit sold on zzperformance (Gear Ratio Conversion Kit). Trying to get a 3.69 ratio for better low speed acceleration. Their one has been out of stock forever and I can’t find anyone else selling something similar and in stock aside from MMS who sells one for $2000.
Ideas? Car is a modded 2004 LeSabre with the following:

105lb valve springs
Steel Valve Spring Retainers
Custom pushrods
GT1 Camshafts
H-Body Downpipe w/ MagnaFlow Turbo XL muffler
Rollermaster Double Chain Timing Set
LS7 Hydraulic Roller Lifters
Extra thick front cover gasket
Machined oil pump cover
K&N drop in air filter
High flow fuel filter
Custom tuned PCM
180 degree thermostat

Right now 0-55ish is all 1st gear and then when it shifts to 2nd I’m getting a huge rpm/torque drop because all the gears are so long.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!

I have one for sale maybe,contact me and we can talk

 

[John L]

I have one for sale maybe,contact me and we can talk

in 1994 GM changed their 7/8 wide chain and sprockets in the 4t60e

so you want the 1994 or newer ones and the correct chain for it also

Borg Warner HV058

the 1994 and newer chain is a rocker pin style chain the older one is a round pin style chain.

the older round style pin chain is much weaker and less efficient.

the older round style pin chain is sometimes sold as 15/16th wide chain.

the sprockets for each chain type are also not interchangeable!

and both sprockets will need some simple machining

the driven sprocket needs a cone shape counter bore 0.282” deep from the top face of the sprocket to clear the 4t65e 4th clutch hub.

(you can verify the measurement by comparing the the OE sprocket counter bore against the clutch drum shaft that slides inside of the sprocket splines, with depth calipers, the difference may look like it is only .240" but that is because there is a step down in the face of the 4t60e sprocket so take that into account. the step down will be removed by the cone angle side wall of the counter bore for clearance. and it will be more obvious that the depth is actually .282")

both sprockets will need drilled for the four hole and 2x three hole pattern to fit the 4t65e reluctor wheel, and the two plastic thrust bushings that have molded round pegs to hold them in place.

a milling machine can do all of this, just make carful measurements to lay out the hole location

In the end you may not want to do the 4t60e sprocket and 7/8 wide chain swap

Dave Norris at triple edge performance told me that he thinks the chains are not made as strong as they once where. he said after a couple of LS4 cars broke 7/8 chains in less than 5000 miles under normal driving conditions he stopped selling them.

I have two theories, why. after the LS4 powered cars came out all 4t65e transmissions where equipped with the same stronger chains that the LS4 cars got. each leaf link is 0.030" taller than the 4t60e links and they are the same width, so there is more cross sectional area to withstand the tension load. (assuming the same Alloy steel and treatment the 4t65e chains should be stronger.)

the other factor is the 4T60e Chain is very tight between links compared to 4t65e chain links. and the teeth on the sprockets for the 4t60e are slightly bigger on one side than the other. about 0.0075" total. this can cause all of the load to be on the out side links first. and if they break it is a domino effect.

Dave Noris said he built a special transmission to test the case deflection under load and he says that the case flexes enough under high load of high HP cars that the guide links get Jammed into the teeth of the sprockets and this breaks them.

I have not seen his test rig so I don't know how he was measuring but under load I can imagine the chain on a sprocket that is larger on ones side than the other would guide the chain at an angle, instead of straight to the next sprocket.

left drive sprocket is post 1994 , right driven sprocket is pre 1994

^^Borg Warner HV058 (rocker pin chain match left sprocket)^^
note the gap around the miss matched sprocket/chain

^^round pin style chain is the older weaker style 15/16 chain^^
note the gap around the miss matched sprocket/chain


The older sprocket on top has the same number of teeth (35) but is about 1/16" larger in diameter!

in 1994 GM changed their 7/8 wide chain and sprockets in the 4t60e

so you want the 1994 or newer ones and the correct chain for it also

Borg Warner HV058

the 1994 and newer chain is a rocker pin style chain the older one is a round pin style chain.

the older round style pin chain is much weaker and less efficient.

the older round style pin chain is sometimes sold as 15/16th wide chain.

the sprockets for each chain type are also not interchangeable!

and both sprockets will need some simple machining

the driven sprocket needs a cone shape counter bore 0.282” deep from the top face of the sprocket to clear the 4t65e 4th clutch hub.

(you can verify the measurement by comparing the the OE sprocket counter bore against the clutch drum shaft that slides inside of the sprocket splines, with depth calipers, the difference may look like it is only .240" but that is because there is a step down in the face of the 4t60e sprocket so take that into account. the step down will be removed by the cone angle side wall of the counter bore for clearance. and it will be more obvious that the depth is actually .282")

both sprockets will need drilled for the four hole and 2x three hole pattern to fit the 4t65e reluctor wheel, and the two plastic thrust bushings that have molded round pegs to hold them in place.

a milling machine can do all of this, just make carful measurements to lay out the hole location

In the end you may not want to do the 4t60e sprocket and 7/8 wide chain swap

Dave Norris at triple edge performance told me that he thinks the chains are not made as strong as they once where. he said after a couple of LS4 cars broke 7/8 chains in less than 5000 miles under normal driving conditions he stopped selling them.

I have two theories, why. after the LS4 powered cars came out all 4t65e transmissions where equipped with the same stronger chains that the LS4 cars got. each leaf link is 0.030" taller than the 4t60e links and they are the same width, so there is more cross sectional area to withstand the tension load. (assuming the same Alloy steel and treatment the 4t65e chains should be stronger.)

the other factor is the 4T60e Chain is very tight between links compared to 4t65e chain links. and the teeth on the sprockets for the 4t60e are slightly bigger on one side than the other. about 0.0075" total. this can cause all of the load to be on the out side links first. and if they break it is a domino effect.

Dave Noris said he built a special transmission to test the case deflection under load and he says that the case flexes enough under high load of high HP cars that the guide links get Jammed into the teeth of the sprockets and this breaks them.

I have not seen his test rig so I don't know how he was measuring but under load I can imagine the chain on a sprocket that is larger on ones side than the other would guide the chain at an angle, instead of straight to the next sprocket.

left drive sprocket is post 1994 , right driven sprocket is pre 1994

^^Borg Warner HV058 (rocker pin chain match left sprocket)^^
note the gap around the miss matched sprocket/chain

^^round pin style chain is the older weaker style 15/16 chain^^
note the gap around the miss matched sprocket/chain


The older sprocket on top has the same number of teeth (35) but is about 1/16" larger in diameter!

I really enjoyed all the specs,info,pics,knowledge on the chain setup. Dave Norris (TEP) is building me his best version 4t65e right now. 1"chain,case support, LSD, PI Billet converter, 300m Input &GMR 300m Output shafts, and EVERY other upgrade you can do. Very hefty price tag,and I had alot of the hard parts but he is the BEST . It's for a Twincharged build I'm doing. He's actually finishing my brand NEW INTENSE Stage 3 CNC heads also!! I'm hoping he will build my motor when he gets done with the Trans and Heads. Any way I will have a set of 3.69 gears, and new7/8 chain when I pick up my stuff. I bought a built Trans and had Dave go through it and I swapped to 3.29's and the old owner is still into GTP'S so he asked about getting his old gears back but he just said recently he might be 5sp swapping the car he was going to use them m in. If you're really interested in buying a set contact me and if you're willing to pat my price then I'll see if the gentleman changed his mind.

 

[devonth]

I really enjoyed all the specs,info,pics,knowledge on the chain setup...

Thanks John L!

I probed the profile of the correct 1994+ sprocket and hard milled it into the older one since it was larger and the teeth are induction hardened all the way through to 55Rc. Now the chain fits.

the older sprocket was New Old Stock still in the box when I got it so that is why the bearing race is new without any wear marks.

interestingly the hard milled teeth are extremely slippery compared to the factory cut sprocket.

and I also am not using mine because I did not expect all the extra work so I put my trans together with standard chains, ratcheting sprags, larger 3rd piston, new AFL valve, and a sonnax zip valve body control valve, sonnax pressure relief valve, ZZP input shaft not the 300m one, ZZP 2500 stall converter, new bearings, New Bushings, and extra input friction.
I drilled my separator plate a little more than I intended (Dave said it probably will be fine) and I have a shift kit, (Dave installs Transgo spring and spacer kit in every build and performance rebuild kit and has always recommended them ) I think I am going to retune the line pressure to get the slaming under control, because the shifts slam a bit. I think it is a little too harsh.

I actually used Dial bore gauges to measure Bushings before and after changing just to see because I also could not find specs on how much wear was allowable. my trans had 93,000 miles, and the funny thing was some of the bushings were more loose after I put new ones on, some were worn several thousandths, and Teflon seals are basically indestructible, they all measured the same as the new ones. I'll post my bushing wear measurements later.

I had ZZP start a remote tune, and as part of that I was trying to solve an Over drive problem, so they turned the pressure to maximum. DO NOT DO THAT! Sonnax website over pressure valve page explains that the original ball valve allows pressure near double what the torque converter is rated for and it causes the impellers to strike each other. and that is true. symptoms are when you start the car after it was sitting for a while maybe up to a day, it will not go into any gear for a minute because metal shavings from the torque converter get stuck in the cooler check valve and allow all the fluid to drain back to the pan. so when you start it up you have to pump fluid all through the system before it gets to any of the hydraulic controls.

when I back flushed the cooler lines I was shocked at how much giant metal shavings came out and stuck to my barely magnetic screw driver that I was using to open the check ball valve! so glad I back flushed it before running the new Torque converter!

this is what forced me to rebuild my transmission also because those large metal shavings got into the valve body and solenoids, it jamed one solenoid so it would not move and it jamed one valve in the valve body, I had to use vice grips to get the valve out of the VB, and the metal shaving scraped the side of the valve, so I had to carefully stone the bure back down before I reinstalled it.

my transmission would not go into any gear other than 1st and reverse. baffling symptoms I searched everywhere and could not get an explanation for it, even Dave was not to sure why no other gears but first and reverse.

long story short DO NOT tune the tranny to max pressure especially without Sonnax over pressure valve.

TCC Relief Valve - 84757-01K

GM 4T65-E transmissions often suffer converter failure during high line pressure conditions such as max adapts or various codes due to excess apply pres

www.sonnax.com