Help with tuning with HPTuners

932 Views 65 Replies 2 Participants Last post by dezldave961, 23 d ago

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

I have a 1988 Fiero GT with an L32. I took it out for its first run this spring and I'm showing 4-5 degrees of KR & running a little lean at 105 Kpa manifold pressure and at different points I'm also seeing super rich values. I have been at the HP Tuners forum for help but I'm just getting the feeling that if it's not an LS then they're not interested.
I've been getting responses like;

1) "3800 computers are super basic, there is almost no tables on those computers.
Anything you see on youtube that uses a LS based V8 computer will have 10x the amount of tables. The 3800's are MAF based and very simple."

2) "those ecm's do not offer an custom operating systems, what you see under the tabs is what you get for these older ecms. "

3) "speed density custom operating systems have absolutely nothing to do with adjusting for knock retard and fueling. "
My main question is, How are people tuning their 3800's if HP Tuners is useless for it according to HP Tuners?

21 - 40 of 66 Posts

dezldave961

· #21 · 2 mo ago

The transition into boost/PE is a bit of a pain to get near perfect, bit if you can have your roll-in trims near zero, that helps.

If you have a WB, you'll want to log its AFR side-by-side with MAF and Commanded AFR (I run mine into empty EGR position signal to have it in the PCM log, unless you have an A/D input available). The %diff between those when in PE/open loop fueling above ~30% throttle will be the adjustment you want. Most target for mid-high 11.x's to be safe on gas. If you see your commanded value moving, one of the modifier tables is probably messing with it.

Start off easy, just getting partly up there (30-50%), and make that happy. Then start going a bit more (60-75%) for just a few seconds, until the MAF curve seems to have the shape it likes. Always smooth out the curve for areas you don't have data for, yet, so it's a stable change as it sees new regions. Favor the data that changed it, and adjust outlying parts of the curve towards your data-adjusted values in other cells.

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Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #22 · 2 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
The transition into boost/PE is a bit of a pain to get near perfect, bit if you can have your roll-in trims near zero, that helps.

If you have a WB, you'll want to log its AFR side-by-side with MAF and Commanded AFR (I run mine into empty EGR position signal to have it in the PCM log, unless you have an A/D input available). The %diff between those when in PE/open loop fueling above ~30% throttle will be the adjustment you want. Most target for mid-high 11.x's to be safe on gas. If you see your commanded value moving, one of the modifier tables is probably messing with it.

Start off easy, just getting partly up there (30-50%), and make that happy. Then start going a bit more (60-75%) for just a few seconds, until the MAF curve seems to have the shape it likes. Always smooth out the curve for areas you don't have data for, yet, so it's a stable change as it sees new regions. Favor the data that changed it, and adjust outlying parts of the curve towards your data-adjusted values in other cells.

Thanks.
One other thing, how does the PCM choose to use the High Octane timing table instead of the Low Octane table?

dezldave961

· #23 · 2 mo ago

Not sure, I usually try to copy my settings into both. It might be for when excessive knock is sensed when someone uses junk gas, or something. Never looked into it, since I'm very particular about what I put in my modded cars.

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #24 · 2 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
Not sure, I usually try to copy my settings into both. It might be for when excessive knock is sensed when someone uses junk gas, or something. Never looked into it, since I'm very particular about what I put in my modded cars.

Ok, Thank you.

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #25 · 2 mo ago

Well I think that I'm getting close to having it dialed in, but.......now I found more problems.
I have a stock L32, stock injectors, and pulley, but when I look through the data I'm finding info that makes no sense.
1.) At 5,200 RPM under WOT the injector duty cycle goes up to 80% and climbs to 95% by 5,600 RPM.
2.) It's saying my boost hit 21.9 psi.
Why would a stock engine run out of injector?
And if I actually hit 21.9 psi on a stock engine why didn't it blow up?
During the run the only KR recorded was 0.1

dezldave961

· #26 · 2 mo ago

Seems like the scaling on your MAP is still wrong. It might be running extra rich, which will cause injectors to be open more than necessary.

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #27 · 2 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
Seems like the scaling on your MAP is still wrong. It might be running extra rich, which will cause injectors to be open more than necessary.

If I just cruise around normally then the AFR is hovering around 14.7, but if I just give it 50% throttle or more it goes way rich to about 8.4. Does this mean that my PE settings are way off?
Can I calibrate or adjust the MAP like you can in MS?

dezldave961

· #28 · 2 mo ago

To be certain, what OSID for the tune are you using (what car is it basing the settings and table scaling off of, in the background... if you just got the PCM from a donor car, what year/make/model was it, and what's the)... and what is the part # on your MAP sensor? You need to either match up an 3800SC base tune file and MAP, or a 3800 N/A file and MAP sensor. This seems to be where your final headaches stem from.

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #29 · 2 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
To be certain, what OSID for the tune are you using (what car is it basing the settings and table scaling off of, in the background... if you just got the PCM from a donor car, what year/make/model was it, and what's the)... and what is the part # on your MAP sensor? You need to either match up an 3800SC base tune file and MAP, or a 3800 N/A file and MAP sensor. This seems to be where your final headaches stem from.

I have a PCM from Intense racing and the MAP is a new AC Delco that GM says is correct for the L32.

dezldave961

· #30 · 2 mo ago

That doesn't provide the information I need. Details are important... You wouldn't plug an iphone charger in an Android phone and expect it to work right because both sellers said they were right for each other.

What is the car ID in the file, and what numbers are on the PCM tag from GM? What part # is on the MAP sensor?

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #31 · 2 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
That doesn't provide the information I need. Details are important... You wouldn't plug an iphone charger in an Android phone and expect it to work right because both sellers said they were right for each other.

What is the car ID in the file, and what numbers are on the PCM tag from GM? What part # is on the MAP sensor?

[Specific Controller]
GM P04, 3W7P9N4237, (2)

ConnectionMethod: USB
ID: 2061194281
HardwareVersion: 1.4.0
ManufactureDate: 9/3/2020 3:14:10 PM
PartNumber: 6230
FirmwareVersion: 5.1.24
FirmwareStageName: Release
FirmwareControllerGroup: 2
PoweredOnTime: 00:01:03
VehicleConnectedTime: 00:01:02
VehicleDiagnosticConnector: 1

Protocol Info: SAE J2178, J1962: VPW

ECM: 10, VPW - P04, GM V6
VIN: 2G1WP521649116056 - 2004 Chevrolet Impala SS, 3.8 L, V6, GM_P04
Serial: 3W7P9N4237
OS: 12580151
Calibration IDs: 12580115
Calibration VNs: 000087E5
Basic PIDs: 19
Controller Type ID By VIN: 4010
Controller Type ID By OS: 4010

MAP sensor : 213-4386

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dezldave961

· #32 · 2 mo ago

Perfect. Gimme a day or so to get to my laptop and dig thru some pics, etc. That MAP number seems to match to a TPS sensor, though.

I'm seeing the following in a quick check:
For L67: 12580698, 12615136, 2131155, 2131631, 220324, 9350899
For L36: 09359409, 12614973, 16187556, 16249939, 8093594090, 8126149730, 8161875560, 8162499390, 9359409

I've got a bunch in my garage that I could do a better visual ID on (pic examples), but I'm on the road for work, currently. If you don't resolve it in the near future, I'll get back and dig into them.

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #33 · 2 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
Perfect. Gimme a day or so to get to my laptop and dig thru some pics, etc. That MAP number seems to match to a TPS sensor, though.

I'm seeing the following in a quick check:
For L67: 12580698, 12615136, 2131155, 2131631, 220324, 9350899
For L36: 09359409, 12614973, 16187556, 16249939, 8093594090, 8126149730, 8161875560, 8162499390, 9359409

I've got a bunch in my garage that I could do a better visual ID on (pic examples), but I'm on the road for work, currently. If you don't resolve it in the near future, I'll get back and dig into them.

Great catch!
I grabbed the box from the TPS sensor I just got for my GN.
The correct # for the MAP sensor is: 19418810

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #34 · 2 mo ago

Well, this is starting to get really irritating. I just found another part look up that says this MAP sensor is incorrect. This one is actually the BARO sensor and completely different from the MAP sensor. I have yet another sensor on the way to see if that is the problem or if it is the way the PCM is set up.

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #35 · 2 mo ago

Turbogn said:
Well, this is starting to get really irritating. I just found another part look up that says this MAP sensor is incorrect. This one is actually the BARO sensor and completely different from the MAP sensor. I have yet another sensor on the way to see if that is the problem or if it is the way the PCM is set up.

I've had it with this BS. I received the supposed correct MAP sensor today and instead of having the part #‎213-1631, it has the same part# of the last one I bought that is supposedly the BARO sensor. So I guess this is a PCM issue afterall.

dezldave961

· #36 · 1 mo ago

ORRRR... you keep getting the wrong sensor.

The ones I usually see on my L32's I've bought in recent years have the 12580698 number on both the MAP and BARO. Below is a terrible 2007 cell phone pic of the ones from a ~2004 GTP engine, I believe it was. If you aren't able to get to a U-pull yard and find an L67/32 car to snag one to try, even the wider version on the older engines, let me know. I can probably ship you one in a couple weeks, when I'm less busy with work travels.

Rectangle Font Gas Machine Electronic device

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Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #37 · 1 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
ORRRR... you keep getting the wrong sensor.

The ones I usually see on my L32's I've bought in recent years have the 12580698 number on both the MAP and BARO. Below is a terrible 2007 cell phone pic of the ones from a ~2004 GTP engine, I believe it was. If you aren't able to get to a U-pull yard and find an L67/32 car to snag one to try, even the wider version on the older engines, let me know. I can probably ship you one in a couple weeks, when I'm less busy with work travels.

View attachment 12081

That would be great, as I can't find one that is the correct one. I tried one of the bigger ones off of my GN and that doesn't work either.

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #38 · 1 mo ago

dezldave961 said:
ORRRR... you keep getting the wrong sensor.

The ones I usually see on my L32's I've bought in recent years have the 12580698 number on both the MAP and BARO. Below is a terrible 2007 cell phone pic of the ones from a ~2004 GTP engine, I believe it was. If you aren't able to get to a U-pull yard and find an L67/32 car to snag one to try, even the wider version on the older engines, let me know. I can probably ship you one in a couple weeks, when I'm less busy with work travels.

View attachment 12081

Well this just keeps getting more confusing. I finally found a MAP sensor 12580698 and installed it. I turned the key on and now both the new MAP and the BARO are only reading 10.6 instead of the normal 14.8 - 14.9, but under full boost the MAP is reading correctly and the BARO is reading 10.2 - 10.8. Every other MAP sensor change has not made any change to the BARO. If these are two seperate sensors, why is it changing both?

dezldave961

· #39 · 1 mo ago

It probably compares them during key-on. I would need to read the service manual details on the L32 system (I never use it in swaps for a reason).

Turbogn

Discussion Starter · #40 · 1 mo ago

Wonderful, yet another problem. It just never seems to end.

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