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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

I work on a racing setup with a 3800 gen 1 swap convert with a Gen 2 ECU using the MAP of the gen 2. I use a vacuum hose and hooked up my MAP to it instead of drilling a hole in my actual intake manifold.

I use a high flow Fuel Pump ... I already use this one for a GM L67 5.3,

When I first start the engine, it run rough at idle for the first 10 seconde, and the engine running great, when i hit the throttle it was going revolution really fast, but smoke black .. so i know i was running rich. But it was running

Actually, when i start the engine, it's hard to start, and can't stay ON at idle.. it stall.

If I plug the pump, just to build some pressure on the system, unplug it, start the engine, it start well, run great at idle and at the moment I plug the pump back.. it run rough and stall.

I use the factory fuel pressure regulator .

My tought is maybe the flow on the return line is too hi and the pressure regulator cannot do his job well and the pressure increased too hi on the injector side and the injector cannot close well and leak in ?

Maybe this is only my glow plug ? I will try to change it tomorrow, i've got new one..

What do you think about it ?

thanks a lot
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Hi,

I work on a racing setup with a 3800 gen 1 swap convert with a Gen 2 ECU using the MAP of the gen 2. I use a vacuum hose and hooked up my MAP to it instead of drilling a hole in my actual intake manifold.

I use a high flow Fuel Pump ... I already use this one for a GM L67 5.3,

When I first start the engine, it run rough at idle for the first 10 seconde, and the engine running great, when i hit the throttle it was going revolution really fast, but smoke black .. so i know i was running rich. But it was running

Actually, when i start the engine, it's hard to start, and can't stay ON at idle.. it stall.

If I plug the pump, just to build some pressure on the system, unplug it, start the engine, it start well, run great at idle and at the moment I plug the pump back.. it run rough and stall.

I use the factory fuel pressure regulator .

My tought is maybe the flow on the return line is too hi and the pressure regulator cannot do his job well and the pressure increased too hi on the injector side and the injector cannot close well and leak in ?

Maybe this is only my glow plug ? I will try to change it tomorrow, i've got new one..

What do you think about it ?

thanks a lot
Spark plug 馃槀 my bad
 

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Hi,

I work on a racing setup with a 3800 gen 1 swap convert with a Gen 2 ECU using the MAP of the gen 2. I use a vacuum hose and hooked up my MAP to it instead of drilling a hole in my actual intake manifold.

I use a high flow Fuel Pump ... I already use this one for a GM L67 5.3,

When I first start the engine, it run rough at idle for the first 10 seconde, and the engine running great, when i hit the throttle it was going revolution really fast, but smoke black .. so i know i was running rich. But it was running

Actually, when i start the engine, it's hard to start, and can't stay ON at idle.. it stall.

If I plug the pump, just to build some pressure on the system, unplug it, start the engine, it start well, run great at idle and at the moment I plug the pump back.. it run rough and stall.

I use the factory fuel pressure regulator .

My tought is maybe the flow on the return line is too hi and the pressure regulator cannot do his job well and the pressure increased too hi on the injector side and the injector cannot close well and leak in ?

Maybe this is only my glow plug ? I will try to change it tomorrow, i've got new one..

What do you think about it ?

thanks a lot
My first thought would be to install an ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR. Using one of these you can tune the fuel volume and pressure. I use one of these with good results. This is also another way to richen or lean fuel delivery. I run one of these also.....been using it for a long time now with no problems. Mr goodwrench(Jake)...
PS, ZZP has these regulators.............
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
My first thought would be to install an ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR. Using one of these you can tune the fuel volume and pressure. I use one of these with good results. This is also another way to richen or lean fuel delivery. I run one of these also.....been using it for a long time now with no problems. Mr goodwrench(Jake)...
PS, ZZP has these regulators.............
Great thanks,
I've only got a cheap fuel pressure regulator from Amazon at the moment, I'll try it this morning. I'll let you know the results
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I will fill the hole of the fuel rail return line and use the return line of the FPR before the fuel rail instead. This way I won't have the flow delta P I've got on the stock return line of fuel rail.

I'll start with low pressure first. See how it run
 

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Monitoring A/F ratio correctly: Wideband Oxygen (WB O2) sensor that gives more accurate 0-5V reading for tuning, especially outside the normal operating range of 14.7:1 that's just meant for most idle/cruise periods (factory narrowband 0-1V only monitor this region accurately). PLX, AEM, Innovate, and others make proven units using Bosch sensors typically OEM in VW's for decades, ~$180-200.

Adjusting A/F ratio correctly: Either being able to reflash/tune your pcm fuel tables based on readings from the WB O2 sensor, or skewing/tricking your airflow sensor readings to inform the computer that it requires more/less fuel at that airflow reading (i.e. ZZP's mini-AFC, or similar items), less flexible but helps when pcm flash options are limited.

Note: adjustments should be made for low-RPM situations based on the narrowband O2, since that impacts fuel trims applied by the pcm, but this will generally agree with WB O2 readings in a properly running system, and has limited resolution to see things in high % throttle/wide-open/full-throttle scenarios compared to WB O2's.

From PLX devices page (WB output calcs differ by brand):
11180

11181


Fuel pressure is good to increase for higher demand purposes, to a point based on what has been upgraded (line connections/o-rings, pump, wiring, regulator, and basic $200-400 injector sets have limitations compared to a full end-to-end racing fuel cell/-AN line/low-Z injector build that 99.9% of 3800's don't require), but the minimum level should still remain at/near original pressure (~45-50psi) to ensure the components operate as designed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for great information, I'll apply it.
I bought hp tuners last week, impatient to try it.. My engine need to run before! Damn..

This morning I try reducing pressure and flow. It seems to work for first start. Same problem occurs after.

Finally, this is not a fuel delivery problem. This is an electrical issue. When I start, my voltage drop to 10 volt. Seems normal for hi current at start. If my pump is powered, it drop to 9v.. Begin to be low.
If I use an other battery to powered my pump, it start well, run great, no problem at all, my voltage is 14v, alternator is good. I unplug my pump on the other battery to plug it to the main battery, voltage drop to 9v and the engine stall. I first think my alternator was bad. I change it this afternoon, same fuckin problem.

I really don't understand why my voltage drop like this. My pump is properly connected, good ground, wire big enough... I'm overwhelmed!
 

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I'd chase all your wiring to make sure all grounds for the battery and engine are solid, along with the small grounds on the engine harness at coil packs and starter. Adding an extra ~4ga alternator-to-battery (red +), and frame-to-engine (blk -) may also help. It's something most of us have done to ensure good power distribution overall.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I add a big wire ground near the coil pack, clean all the others, sanding the surface before screw it back. Now I can run my pump with no problem.. Thanks for your help!

I'm still running rich. I will log into the ECU to monitor the sensors. But, I'm pretty sure my MAP is not properly installed. I connect it with a 3/8 vacuum tube.. Around 1. 5 feet long, from the vacuum distribution bloc near the throttle body.

I set it like that to avoid drilling a hole in my aluminium intake manifold. My hose could be shorter, I set it like that to be able to install the MAP zid tied to my main wiring.. But, I think the vacuum reading is not good enough and the VE table is offsetted vs the real load of the engine... Or the MAF of the Gen 1 is not scaled like the MAF of the Gen 2? All my sensor is from Gen 1, engine Gen 1, ECu Gen 2 and MAP Gen 2.... O2 is from a Silverado, 4 wired, Delphi 2 type... Haha my car is a real Frankenstein, Buick park avenue engine with an impala ECu, Silverado O2 sensor, everything installed in the trunk of a Mazda 3 haha I like it complicated haha
 

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If you can use a hard plastic line with connectors at the ends, instead of a flexible rubber/silicone hose, it will make the reading more stable and consistent. After that, you will get better information from scanning to see how it's trying to adjust fuel trims at different running conditions (long term and short term percentage changes to the original fuel charts).

Frankenstein cars are the best kind (both my GTP and GS have had components from all sorts of junkyard donors).
 

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I think it's awesome what you're doing with your Gen1 3800. That engine will always have a special place in my heart. (It came in my first car, see.) I'm not a huge gear-head - but I am curious: what made you decide to go with a Gen1 3.8 VS a Series 2 or 3? I will say that I feel like my Gen1 3800 in my '88 Olds Delta 88 Royale pulled a LOT harder than my current '99 Gen2 3800 (Series 2) does ... but that could just be my 40 year old memory playing tricks on me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Haha, first of all, I bought a Buick park avenue 1991 few years ago just for fun, big car, 6 places, so fuckin confortable, run like 脿 big boat haha I make some research in the past, I always know 3800 was pretty good engine. What is notice on series 1, this is the aluminium intake manifold, stronger than the plastic one on the series 2.

Nothing more scientific than that. I remember first time a put my Buick on dirt track, I start first, lot of torque inside... My body was so bad and my suspension head just strip out until the end of the race!

I let the car die for 3-4 years, and I swap it now in a stronger car, and really more lightweight

I'm impatient to run it well, with same power I've got in the past 馃挭
 

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Fair enough! Yeah - I agree with you that the plastic stuff on the new gen 3800 engines does kind of blow chunks. That said, I put the Felpro aftermarket aluminum-backed LIM gaskets on my Gen2 3800 as well as the upgraded UIM plenum and metal stove-pipe and she hasn't leaked anything from those areas since. What I'm struggling with now is the damned elbow pipes carrying coolant through the belt tensioner assembly. They're both aluminum pipes. I did the first swap using some Permatex gasket-make-it-happener goop ... and it leaked about 600 miles later. {face-palm} So I replaced the elbows again using Dorman aluminum elbows again - but this time I decided to let the o-rings do the work by themselves ... and now the b*tch is leaking .... AGAIN ..... so I bought some genuine AC Delco elbows (still aluminum) and I'm going to give those a try. Wish me luck!
 

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I believe someone said the AC Delco elbow o-rings are a bit thicker, or you can source some to swap-in yourself. Not ideal, but it's a $20 job overall and makes it happy once done.

FYI - the setup that held the record for fastest "street driven" 3800 FWD car never swapped from the plastic UIM, it just didn't see PCV, coolant, or EGR, and had the HVII or HV3 insert inside...
Kalo's turbo Impala from ~2006 that made 600+whp and ran multiple 10.0's before he got "bored" and bought something else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Damn, a lot of money investment in the internal to get 600 hp reliable! Should get what.. Around 30 psi of boost! Nice to see it, I wish to be rich enough one day to be able to do it haha
 

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It wasn't a built engine, stock 2004 GTP L32 block I found for him at the local junkyard near Flint, Michigan. Heads were stock L36 N/A ones he let a friend of his try some minor porting on, so valves were left stock with just springs/retainers/seals upgraded for cam and bolted down with ARP studs and Cometic MLS gaskets (that was always a pain to keep sealed with 20+psi constantly pushing on them).

Main cost was the Stattama turbo setup that was installed/tuned/driven by the designer, MattM of ZZP himself, for the final power and track results. The drag stuff was mostly provided by the vendor as they used the car for marketing the success of the kit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm surprised a l32 bottom can take 600 hp, but for sure, my l67 can't handle it haha
 

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They've gotten over 800whp and 8.6sec 1/4 from the L32 in the TTGT car, before he built his newer setup. L67's are good for anything a regular person will put to it, as well. It's usually tuning errors or lack of supporting parts that cause most failures of any build.
 
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