3800Pro Forums banner

Replacing UIM, UIM Gasket, and LIM Gasket.

50K views 254 replies 10 participants last post by  enslow 
#1 · (Edited)
I know there are some other threads on this topic, I did not want to hijack them though.

I've had issues with my car not wanting to start on occasion when it was warm, or if I used the AC while it was idling.
After about 2-3 years without being able to find out what the problem was, I'm pretty sure my engine has become hydra-locked.

I just got my UIM off, and will be removing the TB from it before I replace it with the UIM here.
GM Intake Manifold Kit - iNeedParts.com

I'll also get the LIM kit that they have.

What other parts will I need to buy?
Do those kits come with most of the gaskets and O-rings I need?
Or do I still need to get fuel injector o rings?

I do plan to replace my valve cover gaskets, as well as a few hoses that are dry-rotting, I need to find the little PVC harness, or whatever you call it, I'll take a pic of it later, so maybe somebody may be able to tell me what it's called, and where to find it.

Also, what cleaners will I need to get the LIM cleaned up good?

And last, but not least, any tips on what I'll need to do to make sure the engine is no linger hydra-locked?

Here's some pics, sorry they are not too clear, it was really humid outside.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Any help is appreciated, as I need it, I'm just doing this based off of common mechanical knowledge, and help from the net, so I'll need all the help I can get, as I've been without a car for 3 months, and I really need to get it running again.
 
See less See more
4
#2 ·
I have another question if anybody can help.

Money is really tight, I've already wasted 430.00 on a mechanic that could not fix the car, after that I dropped the last 300.00 I had into replacing a few other things, before I realized the problem.

So I am wondering if anybody knows the cheapest way to get this back up & running, I've priced a lot of stuff I need to replace & it comes to over 700.00, I do not have 700.00 to spend though.

If my UIM is good, and there is no damage from the EGR inlet, is it re-usable?
Or is it really worth trying to save and buy the UIM I posted a link to?
 
#3 ·
your upper intake is probably good to reuse just inspect it good. take off your lower intake manifold and clean it with brake cleaner. Clean the block and heads off with brake cleaner where the lower intake manifold bolts too. Install a new lower intake manifold gasket with a dab of rtv on all 4 corners. Install lower intake manifold and apply high temp thread sealant to the bolts holding the lower intake manifold in. Then install new upper intake manifold gasket and upper intake manifold. Get new fuel injector o-rings for your injectors. They are just rubber o-rings and seal the injectors into the lower intake manifold, they're cheap and easy to install so do it while the fuel rail is off. Make sure you get torque everything down correctly and find the right torque specs. You have too really clean the parts well if you want everything to seal, so dont half ass this.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Thanks for the response, I'll inspect the UIM good, if it appears to be fine then I may go ahead and reuse it, what is the best UIM gasket to get that is not sold along with the UIM?

I'll clean everything very well, especially gasket mating surfaces.
When I replace the LIM gasket, is it good to replace those bolts with something like these?
Amazon.com: 5/16-18 x 1-1/4 Grade 8 Coarse Hex Flange (6 pieces): Home Improvement


As for the starting issue, I'm not sure what else it could be, unless I have a bad ground somewhere, which I am not sure where all of mine in this 96 Park Ave Base model are, I think one may be in the door well, and a few more on the engine somewhere..

The problem started out 2-3 years ago, some times after driving a while when hot, if I stopped the car it would not start, unless I pumped the pedal a little, then it would clear & run ok.
Recently I got a P3003 code, so I replaced the coil pack it relates to, and it ran fine till I got home and let it idle, then turned the AC on, it died for good then in seconds of turning the AC on.
Over the last few months of driving it before it broke down, I noticed I was loosing a good bit of coolant from my anti freeze overflow, and it was not leaking out onto the ground, I then noticed I had a quart too much oil, but I never overfilled it...

I've already tested my security system, I have passkey II, my key is a #3 .681 , I have .581 at the terminal where the ign wires go to from the security part of the ign cylinder, I also have .581 at the theft deterrent module, I read that seeing a .100 drop was normal, and since my security light does not stay on, I ruled that out, but to be safe I tested the blue wire at the TDM, it had 5v as it should, when I plugged the TDM back in and back probed it I got 1.96v, which I thought was supposed to be 2.50v, but I guess the fact it is dropping means it is functioning.

I had a mechanic look at it, he was not a GM certified mechanic though, he said fuel pressure was a little low, so he replaced the fuel pump, and he said it brought it back up to spec.
Still it did not fix it, so I got him to replace the CKP (crankshaft position sensor) and that did nothing.

I've replaced the plugs, PCM, ICM, MAP, and TPS, then cleaned a lot of carbon deposits off of the IAC pintle.
I replaced the fuel filter, then took the FPR out and cleaned its screen a bit, and blew into it a little, I quickly found out they require too much pressure to blow through, lol
However, when I put that back on and pushed on the schrader valve after turning the key on & off, it squirted out with more pressure than I seen before, I did not have a FP tester though, I could still tell it increased...
My MAF has a crack, but I put silicone on it, I will replace it eventually, I have not done so yet because the car failed before I cracked this, and to be honest it is a small crack..

I checked the fuel injector fuse, and removed & tested the the fuel pump relay, both are fine.

The mechanic told me the injectors were not pulsing, I did see 12v on all of them though.

Only thing left I can think of if my engine is not hydra-locked is maybe the CMP (camshaft sensor) went bad.

If it were timing or something, I think it would have died a bit different...

Only codes I've ever seen from the car in the 9 years I've owned it are the following.

A internal transmission slippage code, years back, I forget the code #

A code saying the fuel cap was loose when it was not, I figure maybe that came from the bad O ring at the fuel inlet, if that is even possible.

And the cylinder 3 misfire code right before I replaced it and had the engine die.

The car still starts, and if you spray starter fluid in the TB it will run, at least that is what the mechanic told me.
It starts now, and runs for a second, maybe two..

I know I ruled out the security system, but if replacing these does not bring it back to life, then I may get the security bypass from newrockies....


Here are some better pics, in the last two you can see the corroded milky like whatever it is called by the EGR port, it's all around it, I'll remove that port and inspect when I start working on it again, it's been storming..



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
#7 · (Edited)
I went ahead and wired in a .680 resistor where my ign wires went into the harness at the kick panel. that way I could get regular keys made, and not have to pay 27.00 for a key, I also did it because I thought that was the issue at first, because I read that the resistance had to be exact..

It really does not run long enough now to sputter, it sounds like it runs fine for a second or two at most, but I used to get sputtering when accelerating at lower speeds when it ran ok, this mainly happened when it was warmer outside though.

If the mechanic was right, and my injectors are not pulsing, what else could there be that would keep the PCM from telling them to fire?

I have heard of a fuel resistor, do I have one of those in the back, somewhere around inside/behind the fuel door area?


Also, that fluid in the LIM, and the gunk around the EGR port...
That does look like it was bad right, to me it does, but to be honest I do not totally know what I am looking for, I know fluid is supposed to be somewhere if its hydra-locked, is that what that fluid is in the upper left corner?


I am pretty sure have a good spark on all cylinders.
I have not replaced my wires yet, because I put some bosch high quality wires on it about 50k ago, I do plan to replace them with the factory OEM AC Delco wires ASAP though.
 
#8 ·
I have some questions still about what to use to clean some things, I know what to clean the LIM with, but that UIM, what could I use to clean all the oil residue out of the UIM with?
I do not want to use anything that will damage it.


So far after inspecting the UIM it looks fine, and I plan to reuse it, so what is the best gasket kit to get for the UIM & LIM?


Is this UIM gasket kit the same as what I have on there now?
Amazon.com: Dorman 615-207 Intake Manifold: Automotive

If so can somebody please help me find the better UIM gasket?



I found this for the LIM, it says 1st design though, I don't want that do I?
Isn't there a better LIM gasket?
Amazon.com: Felpro MS 98014 T Intake Manifold Gasket: Automotive


Is this gasket the same as the one for the LIM above?
96-08 Lower Intake Gasket Set 3800 V-6 PermaDryPlus - iNeedParts.com



I've already found my valve cover gaskets.
Amazon.com: Fel-Pro VS50080R Valve Cover Set: Automotive
 
#9 · (Edited)
I was able to answer a few questions myself, I'm going to get a little cheap trash can, and use a mix of water and purple power degreaser to clean the UIM, that should save me some money being able to reuse it.

I've also found a lot of the gaskets that I want at zzperformance, they seem to have most of the gaskets and O rings I need, however I did not see the O rings for where the MAP sensor housing goes, nor did I see the O rings for where what I believe is the brake booster line goes.

Where would I find these?
I've only seen them in kits.
I'd want to replace them damaged or not right?

I noticed I'm going to need to do more than I thought to remove the LIM.
I'm trying to do so without removing the bars on the back side that help hold the alternator in place, I'm pretty sure I can do so without a problem, it does not really seem to be in the way of anything other than that rear valve cover gasket, no worries though because I can get that off after removing the LIM.

I found out I have to remove the belt tensioner to get the upper coolant elbow off, at least I think it's the upper, if it is I've yet to see the lower, and am not really sure where to look for it, maybe under the upper one somewhere?

Removing the belt tensioner is easy I assume, removing the EGR pipe bolt, the one not on the side that connects to the LIM, it is rusty looking, so I am hopeful it will break free easily.

Any tips anybody thinks I may need please feel free to post them, I'm kind of flying blind here, and need all the help I can get so I do not ruin my car.


Oh yea, I almost forgot, the fluid that surrounds those two hidden bolts inside the LIM, I think I know how that got there. :eek:
I was being stupid and loosing the UIM bolts before the antifreeze drained all the way, I popped it up a tad, and seen some fluid come out, dohhhhhhh

If my engine is hydra locked where am I going to see all the antifreeze/oil mixture?
Under the LIM?

If so then what all is needed to do to ensure I get all of that fluid out?
Just clean out all I can see, and then if it runs when done, run it a little and then change the oil out?

Am I going to have to remove my plugs again for any reason?


Sorry for so many questions, I really do not know where else to turn, as money has ren out for the moment.
 
#10 ·
I have yet another question, but it is not totally related to intakes.
I would start another thread, but I do not want threads all over the place, if I find out that something else is my problem then at that time I'll post in the appropriate section.

My question is, if something like my timing slipped, maybe a tooth or something on the sprocket I think you call it broke, if that happened I'd have known it right?
I'd have at least heard something right?
My car would not have died like it was getting starved of fuel somehow would it?
It really died fairly quietly....
 
#11 · (Edited)
I got the EGR stove pipe removed, and got the lower intake manifold off, I still need to remove the belt tensioner, I kind of cheated when removing the LIM, I pulled it off and let it disconnect from the coolant elbow, which broke, mainly I think it broke from being so old, it was not in the best of shape.
I would have removed the belt tensioner, but my POS 13mm socket broke, so I need to get a new one.
I don't think I'll be able to install the new coolant elbow properly without removing that belt tensioner..


Coolant Elbow pic, it broke so I had to carefully work the broken ends out of the tensioner & LIM.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I think I found where my oil was slowly leaking from, I'm still not sure, but it does look like antifreeze was leaking in there a bit, but I'm not sure if my engine is hydra locked, wouldn't I see more fluid?


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Some pics of the LIM before and after I removed it.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Cleanup is going to be fun.....
I used a can and a half of break part cleaner on the LIM, and only got like half of the gunk off...
 
#12 · (Edited)
Yet another 2 questions.

The EGR J Pipe, does it need a gasket at each end, or not?
If so I cannot find them anywhere.


The engine coolant sensor, can I just use regular plumbers teflon tape on the threads?
Ignore the above question, I found something that will work to seal the threads on the engine coolant sensor.
http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-59214-Temperature-Thread-Sealant/dp/B0002UEOP0

I also need to know what is the best thread lock to get for those LIM bolts?

I do still need help with a few other questions I posted, the help would be greatly appreciated.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Here's a few pics of lower part of the LIM gasket surface cleaned up a bit, I still need to get some Q-Tips and get the oil out of the screw holes.

FRONT




REAR




I still need to clean off the block and heads with brake cleaner like suggested, I'm just not sure how to go about that, do I just spray it all over the top of the block and heads?
Will it get down in the engine and hurt it?
Of course I am changing the oil when done, I just do not want to screw something up in the process.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I found some thread locker for the LIM bolts, I am pretty sure it will work for them.
Amazon.com: Permatex 24200 Threadlocker Blue: Automotive

I still need to find the gray RTV, I found this Amazon.com: Permatex 82194 #599 Ultra Grey RTV Gasket Maker, 3.5 oz. Tube: Automotive
Will that work for the four corners under the LIM Gasket, and on top of it?
That same gray RTV should also work for my the bolts that hold the thermostat upper hose housing on?


I got my Valve Covers off, but have yet to clean them, I'll soak them in a little de-greaser and water ASAP.
The gaskets are surprisingly in great shape for 133k, almost look re-usable, but as cheap as they are to replace that is probably stupid to do.
The grommets look great though, so I plan to reuse them, they are not cracked or dry-rotted whatsoever.

I plan to replace that gasket on the side of the LIM, the rectangular one where coolant passes through, I just need to find the correct torque for those, I am not sure what it is...

Here are a few more pics, should I clean the valves and all off with some carb, or brake cleaner?
Then I assume it would be good to open the drain plug, drain my oil, then pour some fresh oil carefully down into where the valve are, that way it will make sure no old oil, gunk, or antifreeze is in there?

VALVE COVERS


FRONT VALVES







REAR VALVES






BOTH VALVES, OVERHEAD SHOT


Sorry for the million questions, once somebody can help me it will take days to answer all my questions.

I'd not be here seeking help if I was not in desperate need of it, I have not had transportation for 3 months now, and living 50+ miles from everything rural is not easy to manage, everybody I know lives 50+ miles away, so they are never too thrilled to have to drive up here and give me a ride.
 
#15 ·
I've managed to spend a few more hours researching more of my questions on my own.
I found a good write-up that will help me out quite a bit.
View topic - Change Upper Intake Manifold & Lower Intake Manifold gaskets : PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

I know what thread lock I need, I'll use blue on the lower, and upper LIM bolts, I know where, and when to apply the RTV.

I also found out how to ensure all the coolant/oil mix is out of my engine, I'll pull all plugs, open drain pan plug, and then hand turn, or use a ratchet to turn the engine a turn or so, I want to ensure that there is no more AF in there to hurt my bearings, if it was hydra locked I am pretty sure that should solve that issue.


I removed my EGR, and tested that pintle, and it would occasionally stick open if I pressed it all the way in, so I kept pushing it till it would free, then till it would stick again, and finally I got it to not stick anymore.
I plan to properly clean it, and the EGR pipes out with carb cleaner.


I still do not know if it is possible to put the LIM back without removing the tensioner assembly, I did read that some mechanics do not remove it unless it is leaking, because it can break and cause you to need to buy a new tensioner assembly.


So if there is somebody around that could please take the time to help me, it would be greatly appreciated.
 
#17 ·
Thank you, checking that out now.

I pretty much have one question left, when I remove the plugs, and rotate the crankshaft pulley to make sure the fluid is out of the cylinders, which way does that rotate?

Towards the inside of the car?
 
#18 ·
Posted this in another section, but posting it here since it may be relevant to my IM gasket failure.


Compression Tester arrived early, and I removed all plugs, and tested each, giving each 5-6 rotations.

2) 105
4) 100
6)105

1)105
3)117-120 :/
5) 97-100

I tested cylinder #3 three times and it was from 117-120, I expected to have trouble there if any, since I got the cylinder #3 misfire code a while back.

What should I do now?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
 
#19 ·
Did a wet compression test on 1, 3, and 5 just now, since my batt is dead, and my jump box needs a recharge, the back three will have to wait, also I still do not have the 1/4" pvc I need to put on my oil can so I can get the back three a few squirts of my mobile 1 synthetic 10w 30.

1)120

3)155

5)125

Going to also post this in the section where I was getting help thinking it was my FPR.

Looks like 3 is my only good cylinder, it's not 100% though, as it looks like 155 would be close to 100%
Would all but one cylinder bad mean that the connecting rod did bend?
 
#21 ·
From what I found spec can be, which is around 155 or so, I'd have to agree. :(
Of course I now know that varies a tad from engine to engine.

And at least I learned how to remove the intake manifold, as well as how to do wet and dry compression tests, so I guess there are some positive aspects to it.

Thanks for all the help!
 
#22 ·
I know some of you seen my other thread with this info, but I am posting it here in case somebody see's this thread, and does not know of the other one.


How to: Remove a 3800 Series II motor - V6 F-Body.com

I found a thread on removing a 3800 Series II, it's from a 96 Camaro though, I'm sure the process is similar, it looks like it would take me forever, if I could get it done, hopefully an engine swap won't be necessary though, I did a proper compression test, I'm not sure if you'd call it a wet, or dry one, because I did not add any oil this time, but I'm sure it is possible some was still there boosting numbers a little.


I made sure to take my reading when pressure stopped increasing.

1) 145
3) 165-170
5) 145

2) 145
4) 145
6) 150

It kind of looks like something may be a little off between 3/6, are those two rods/pistons connected together somehow, forgive me if that is a stupid question, I am still learning how an engine works...

If the oil I put in each cylinder is not affecting numbers still then from what I know I'd not call those great numbers, but I'd call them sufficient enough compression numbers for a engine to run.
With exception to one thing, cylinder #3 has me puzzled, because it is the only one that is not close to the others, I'm not sure if something can happen to make a cylinder gain compression, but I think the off compression is what was somehow responsible for sluggish driving on occasion, and some of my issues, and I this this because from what I've learned you want all numbers to be within 5-10% of one another, else you could possibly get a cylinder misfire from that cylinder due to that big of a difference in compression.
Please correct me if I am wrong, I am doing my best to learn all of this as quickly as possible.




The other one spiraled off topic due to my focus on what I thought was wrong changing, and for that I apologize, if any admin here sees fit that the other thread located here http://www.3800pro.com/forum/fuel-system/36763-fuel-pressure-regulator.html be merged, or moved/renamed due to that, then please feel free to do so.
 
#23 ·
I just compared the coolant ports on your block with mine. I had a lot more pitting in mine. I figure that the pitting in mine must have occured before a previous repair because my gaskets weren't nearly as bad as yours. In fact, a lot of things were cleaner, and my engine has over 200000km. That is further evidence that both my UIM and LIM have been done before.

When it comes time to torque the LIM and UIM bolts, I found that the thread locker would begin to set a little as I was torquing. Anyway, something was creating "static friction". When I'd get to the 3rd stage of torquing (I torqued first to 30 in-lbs, then to 60 in-lbs, then to 90 in-lbs), it would seem as if I was up to the specified torque. I moved the bolt slightly, then checked the torque. It would tighten another 1/8 of a turn to get up to the specified torque. If I had left it without overcoming the "static friction", the LIM and UIM would not have been torqued properly.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I told ya my LIM gaskets were bad, when I picked them up I just started laughing, and smiling also, because I knew I had found a way I could have been getting the oil leak I was looking for, or does no oil get anywhere near any part of the LIM?
Oil does run over the Engine Balancer doesn't it?


I appreciate the tip on torquing the UIM/LIM bolts!
You did make sure you had no oil down in the bolt holes didn't you?
I ask because all of my LIM bolts had the bottoms covered in oil, and I read the oil could affect you getting them to the right torque.

I asked about the valve cover gaskets in the other thread I think, if they look fine couldn't I reuse them?
They are the orange ones, and they appear to be in great condition to me.
 
#27 ·
Thanks.

I've frequented several boards specific for the Lesabre/Bonneville. On some of these forums there are a few quite arrogant people. If I make an error, I would rather be told why I am in error, and I usually expect a good explaination if I am to be criticized, not just criticized because that persons opinion is different from mine.

I have had excellent experiences on Crownvic.net. I have been able to debate several "touchy" subjects intelligently because others are willing to listen to new evidence. On other forums I've encountered people who have made up their minds and won't give good reasons for their opinions. So far, people on this forum seem willing to listen. If they dissagree with us, they tell us why without being condescending. I really hope this continues because I really want to learn more.

If I have questions about computer technology, I'll definitely pm you. Thanks!
 
#28 ·
I was doing a little thinking about the modified nut you mentioned for cleaning the threads enslow, I really do not have a vice, nor hacksaw at the moment, so I thought about trying to find something that would help me clean the threads, and I found something called a chaser nut.

METRIC THREAD CHASER RETHREADING DIE SET M6 - M12 USA | eBay

The one I need is a 10mm, and the M8x1.25 should be that I believe.
Would that have the right threads though?
 
#29 ·
I went ahead and drained my oil, and ran a magnet through it, I also ran my hands through it for a while, and I found, nor felt any metal bits of any sort.

I did notice what I thought was air bubbles, then it dawned on me that it was water, because water and oil do not mix of course, lol





I chocked my back wheels, and raised the car a bit so I could get some pics of the oil, or transmission fluid leak.
I am thinking it may be a little of both, I just hope it is coming from the oil pan bolt that looks bad, and not the oil pan gasket, I checked all bolts on the oil pan and they seem snug, of course I cannot see if they are torqued right, as I have no torque ratchet yet.
I noticed in one of the pics a red hue, so I am betting a few years back I over tightened them when I replaced the fluid and filter. :eek:
And thus I learn the importance of proper torque specifications.
It is a mess up under there... :(
Pics of leak will be in next post, I have reached the posting limit of 8 a post.


Here is the Oil Pan Bolt, I am pretty sure it needs to be replaced.








----------------------------------------------

 
#30 · (Edited)
Here are pics from the fluid leak, the last pic above in the prewvious post is the actual start of the fluid leak pics, I had to put it there since it would have made 9 for this post.



















I wonder if all that fluid did not kill a ground, or some sensor that I do not know about that would cause it to not pulse the injectors anymore, assuming that is possible.

Any ideas where the fluid is coming from?
 
#31 ·
One last pic, soaked my LIM Bolts in rubbing alcohol, and used a wire brush on them a bit, they turned out pretty good, only a tiny bit of thread locker left, I will try to get that off later.

 
#32 ·
#33 · (Edited)
Good thread, post 4 has a bad link, but it was to the same thread chasers I am considering buying, I read that also about tap and die's, then stumbled upon the thread chasers and figured that would be a better route to go.
To be honest I think I have gotten the UIM & LIM bolts clean enough, I soaked them in 91% Isopropyl alcohol for a while, and brushed them with a wire brush a bit more.
Then I had an idea for the UIM bolts, I took the nut from the second long UIM bolt, I think it held the EGR Heat Shield down, I forget now, but I turned it upside down and tried to see if it would thread onto the bolts, I used no force, and all of them threaded on all the way with no resistance.
I still may get those thread chasers, and see if any fit the bolts I have, of course of anything does not go on easily I will not force it!!!

I went ahead and cleaned the pics up in the thread, I fixed the links so the pics show up now, and are click-able to make them full size.
 
#34 ·
I really should clarify, especially for those more experienced here, that while I'm not new to car repairs, I am not a professional either. I don't want anyone making that assumption. I'm also far more experienced working on a Grand Marquis that I've had for 14 years.

However, my real value, probably to William, is that he can learn from the really dumb things I have done, such as stripping the aluminum threads in the alternator because I neglected to use a torque wrench, or at least look it up and know how tight to do without the torque wrench. If I had done that in a shop, I'm sure the boss would have some pretty harsh words with me. There's great advice from many here. I actually wish this site had a tech section for write-ups.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I would clarify that as well, but after reading a few of my questions I am sure everybody figured that out, lol

I'd say your value has already shown, I probably would not have bothered to torque things like alternator bracket bots, which could have ended bad because I have been known to over-tighten things in the past.

I don't know about a place for write-ups, but I found this link on the left side.
http://www.3800pro.com/lists/torquespecs.html

Now that is handy as well, there are a few bolt torque specs in there I did not know.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top